Everton ARE a bigger club than Aston Villa

I tweeted the other day that Everton are a bigger club than Aston Villa, a statement met with much hostility from a selection of fans from the Midlands outfit.

This is a discussion I have stumbled across on numerous occasions on different forums and while some Villa fans accept Everton are the bigger club, I remain shocked as to the number of Villains who just don’t see it. Especially when taken into consideration that the Aston Villa official website refers to them as the fifth most successful club in English football history. Everton are the fourth.

First of all it is important to establish what makes a big club. It is not the size of the stadium, or league position the season before. A big club can only be judged on the number of trophies in their cabinet.

Granted, Villa won the European Cup in 1982, a feat the Toffees have never managed. It is worth noting however that Nottingham Forest have won Europe’s elite competition on two occasions and even the most avid of Forest followers could not honestly claim that they are a bigger club than Everton.

The blue half of Merseyside did celebrate European glory in 1985 – Howard Kendall’s side beating Rapid Vienna in Rotterdam to claim the Cup Winners’ Cup, now known as the Europa League.

Of course winning the European Cup is a greater achievement, and had both clubs been locked on the same number of trophies then that would trump Everton’s triumph and Villa would have to be deemed a bigger club.

As often well publicised by Evertonians, the Goodison Park outfit missed out on the opportunity to claim the biggest prize in club football when all English clubs were banned from European competition from the 1985-86 to 1990-91 seasons.

The ban coincided with Everton winning the league the season before and therefore qualifying for the European Cup. Gary Lineker, who signed for the great Barcelona after a season on Merseyside, recently claimed that Everton were the best side he ever played for.

After making the claim through Twitter, Lineker was asked if Barca were not the greatest side he ever represented. He replied: “Sadly Barcelona were not the side they are today. EFC were very strong in mid 80’s. Best club side I played for.”

Of course being the best side in Europe (or certainly one of the best) and winning the European Cup are two completely different things. There are too many if’s and but’s surrounding the subject and the records show that Everton have never won it.

What they have won however is nine league titles, compared to Villa’s seven. Not a big difference but it is worth noting that six of those seven titles were won between 1889 and 1910. There is then a 71 year wait for the next league triumph in 1981. Compare that to Everton, whose nine titles are spread over six decades. Notably two in the 1930’s, two in the 1960’s and two in the 1980’s.

See below links to both club’s official site history page.

Everton - http://www.evertonfc.com/history/club-honours.html

Villa - http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/HistoryHonours

With 108 seasons complete, Everton are also the longest-serving club in the top flight by some distance.

The fact that Villa find themselves second on that list with 99 years spent in the country’s top division proves that they are a club with a rich history – just not quite as rich as Everton’s.

There is no doubting that both clubs boast some of the finest traditions and proudest histories in English football and the likes of Chelsea and Manchester City have a long way to go and many more billions to spend to emulate anywhere near the same sort of success.

As the saying at Goodison Park goes – if you know your history…

Gary Maiden

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Comments

[Whiskeyw]

Interesting and very informative article and to be fair, both clubs can be proud of there history from the inaugural setting up of the league back in 1888 (oh, by William McGregor - the Aston Villa Chairman) to being 2 of only 3 clubs who were also there at the start of the EPL in 1991 (Blackburn Rovers being the other one). Personally (and yep, a Villa Fan), I see very little difference between the clubs - both can average 40k crowds (albeit not of late at VP when Big Eck was holding the fort), both are on the peripherals of the echelons of the top 6 - both have very little money to spend (or in the case of Everton none under Bill Kenwright!) and both could easily make it to one of the cups on a good day. So in short, History is what it is - just that! It is something to be proud of for both teams. Now lets look to the future - maintain our status in the EPL and support these great clubs before the latest Oil Billionaires bring Notts Forest et al back to the fore and we find outselves struggling with Bolton, Wigan, Wolves and the baggies at the wrong end of the table!

[rustynoodles]

Pointless article but does waste some time waiting for the transfer window & pre season to really kick off. Bit like my dad is bigger than your dad! Makes no difference to the supporter of any club who is bigger than who unless you have an almighty fall from grace and everyone can have a good laugh, Like Leeds Utd - Not a dig at them & if their takeover is successful & not loaded with false promise then they may well have the next laugh.

[plastic villan]

Convenient for your argument that what makes a big club is not

League position
Size of stadium
Turn over
FA cups won
League cups won
European cups won

[McGrathsDodgyKnees]

I don't like posts designed to start arguments - and I dislike inaccurate ones more. Cup Winners Cup to Europa League? Eufa Cup to Europa League is more realistic; with Cup winners withdrawn with an embarrassed shrug.

No mention of FA cup wins (Villa win 7-5 don't they? - although Villa last won in 1957 so I'd say it's even). No mention of Villa's five League Cups either, which is a surprise because Everton's great haul of zero includes one loss to Villa in the final.

I've always had a lot of time for Everton because of the similarities WhiskeyW set out. Both teams frustrate but are genuinely big clubs even without billionaire cash, and both sets of fans can, as with this article, get a little too rose tinted in their views of the world.

[A Villa Fan]

Aston Villa have actually won more trophies than Everton. Villa have won 7 first divisions, 7 FA cups, 5 league cups and The European Cup, 20 in all. Everton have won 9 first divisions, 5 FA cups and 1 European trophy, 15 in all. By your own measure therefore Villa must be the bigger club as they have won 5 more trophies. In fact Villa are the 4th most successful club in terms of trphies won and Everton are in 7th place. The Villa website does not claim Villa are the 5th most successful club as you claim. It simply states that Villa are one of only 5 British clubs to have won The European Cup. After Chelsea's win this is now 6.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_clubs_in_England_by_major_honours_won

[Micky D]

The truth is, who cares? Aston Villa are a huge club in terms of history and silverware and so are Everton. the heritage of these two footballing giants is only overshadowed by the more recent glories of 3 other clubs. The fixture between the two is the most played in the top flight, and they hold records that no other clubs will ever surpass. Villa slid dramatically in the 60's and even plumbed the depths of the 3rd tier, while Everton have never dropped below the 2nd (and that's only for about 4 seasons). As an Everton fan I acknowledge the achievement of winning the European Cup as something Villa have done and we haven't but the blues have held the ECWC and gained more titles which show a higher consistency level than cups. The two founder members of the first structured league in world football can stand proud of still being top flight contenders for trophies over 120 years later and with pride, they can both look back on their massive contribution to the game. Everton and Aston Villa, the 4th and 5th most successful clubs in the worlds oldest and most respected soccer institution

[paddyavfc]

does it matter what teams bigger? both teams are exactly the same to each other!

[Anthony]

My cock is bigger than yours!

[Scouse Phil]

I'm an Everton fan but have friends from all over the country who support a whole host of teams. I see Villa very much as a team that is on a par with Everton with similar fan bases, history, crowds. I think there is generally a good relationship between both sets of fans and we can boast ours being the most contested tie in the country. I'm not sure what good an article like this does other than try to undo everything good about both clubs.

[Jf]

Why do people keep sayin villa spend no money over the last 10 years moyes has beenin charge u have spent ten times as much as everton !!

[Ramon]

Maybe Everton would have won a European Cup if they'd not been denied the opportunity when they had the best side they've ever had, Villa wouldn't have won theirs if THEY'D been prevented from entering the competition. Quoting a European success is OK when there is a level playing field, Villa was allowed in, Everton wern't.

[Tony]

JF. We have probably spent more in £ note terms but you were spending money at a time when we didn't have any and players were, relatively, much cheaper. As an example, we were also linked with Jagielka, Lescott and Cahill when you bought but didn't have the funding to compete - £4m, £5m and £2m were more than we could afford and would probably have equated to £8-10m at the time O'Neill was starting to spend our money. When O'Neill came in our squad was seriously threadbare and he was buying at inflated prices that prevailed in the market at that time just to build a squad that was capable of competing with the one Moyes had assembled. Your recent problem is that your squad has been ageing and, until last season, Moyes hasn't had the money to compete, much like ourselves. I am not sure Moyes has the ability to forage for gems (Jelavic aside) in the same way that I am hoping Lambert can (as he appeared to do so at Norwich).

As for the bigger club argument, the OP must be a real tw*t to pen that article in the way that he did i.e. as a matter of fact. I agree with a number of posters, both clubs have great histories and a similar standing. Both clubs are similarly finding it hard to compete in the current market with the top 4-6 clubs although both again have excellent academies. The one concern I would have as a Toffee is the status of the ground and the difficulty in replacing this, whereas I think VP (might be slightly biased!) is one of the best grounds in the country. However, if I could chose a top 4 it would include Villa (obviously as first place) and have Everton somewhere in there. Unfortunately, I can't!

[John]

I presume Everton have won at least 5 of every major domestic honour?

Maybe not, Everton haven't even won all 3 of them!

[Ramon]

John, all this is a bit like me saying that Villa have never won the Liverpool Senior Cup. Villa haven't entered it, just as Everton weren't ALLOWED to enter the European Cup when we had the best chance of winning it. OK, we haven't won the League/Rumbelows/Milk/MickyMouse Cup but we HAVE been Champions 8 times to your twice since 1900. We've also won the FA Cup three times since your last victory, which was 1957(?). And been semi finalist a record number of times. What does all this prove? Not much. We are both a million miles away from being Prem Champions. But we're both big clubs. (we're just a little bit bigger!)

[John]

Ramon, not only have Villa won more more major trophies - they've also won by far the biggest.
Everton haven't even won the league cup! Also in Villa's favour is they've won the more recent major trophy too.
In terms of the league I think Villa just shade it as they've had 17 winners or runners-up which is slightly better than Everton.

Not to mention Villa set up World league football, have a bigger fanbase, a bigger budget and a superior ground.

You are a big club , just not as big as Villa.

[Ramon]

John, haha, This could go on all season, anyway, we both have been Champions or runners up 16 times. However, you have been Champions only 7 times to our 9. As for the biggest prize, I imagine that's the European Cup, it's a bit unfair to compare the clubs in that respect, we were prevented from taking part due to the actions of Liverpool fans when we had the best team we'd ever had and were prevented from European football for four consecutive seasons, during which time our team broke up in order to pursue their own European dreams.. And if you include the FA Cup we've had more wins/runners up. And Charity Shield. And Liverpool Senior Cup........
And the first purpose built football stadium in the world.
As for the bigger fan base, now you're being silly...

Light blue touch paper and retire to a safe distance...

[John]

Ramon, just to correct one of your points - the totals are 17 winners and runners up iin the league for Villa and 16 for Everton. Not that I expected you to get your facts right!

In terms of the European Cup there was no guarantee you would have won it and we can only deal with the facts and that is Everton have not won the biggest European prize. In fact if you include winners and runner ups of the 3 major domestic competitions Villa have more of them too.

Villa clearly have the bigger fanbase (as an example 649k likes for Villa on Facebook and just the 248k for Everton) and even last season with Everton doing better in the league Villa had the higher average attendance.

Do I need to even mention who has the superior head to head in the most ever played game in English football. Yeah you guessed it.

[Ramon]

Right.
Everton have played more seasons in the top flight than Villa.
Everton have scored more goals, played more games, won more games, won more Championships and scored more points.
The FA Cup. Counting Winners, Finals and Semi Finals , Everton have totaled 38, Villa 25.
We have won the League 9 times and been runners up 7 times. You're correct, you have won the League 7 times and been runners up 10 times. 16 against 17, although I'd rather have our statistics than yours. You've won it once since 1909. Were you old enough to see that?
Over the seasons 2000-2001 to 2011-2012, Villa have averaged just over 500 more fans to each home game than Everton. However, the population of Birmingham is, at the 2008 census, 1,018,800 whereas Liverpool's is only 469017, which makes the figures a bit more favourable, especially when we have the second biggest club in Britain 1 mile away. And you have......Albion? City?
You are correct, we may NOT have been successfull when we were banned, we'll never know, but it was one of the finest team I've seen in the 55 years I've been watching Everton. Only the 1969-70 team were better.
Don't bother responding, I'm off on holiday tomorrow and I imagine you'll only attempt to rewrite history.

Facebook? How f****** old ARE you?

[John]

Thanks Ramon for admitting you got your figures wrong.

So to clarify we have won far bigger in Europe, won more FA Cups and League Cups (the latter you haven't won ever!). I will give you credit for the league but even that it's only 2 different. When you take into account that in modern football (premier league era) we're 5th in the all time table and Everton are only 7th then there is an argument that we edge it. We've also finished higher in the premier league than Everton have too.

As for the head to head record Villa have the superior record which matches the major trophy haul.

Good to see you are trying to justify your lower support. What you have actually done is just highlight you have a smaller catchment area which has actually helped to explain why you have a lower average attendance (even when you have a far better season).

400k more fans using Facebook as a guide. Don't tell me a lot of houses in Liverpool don't have computers!

[Ramon]

So, John, you honestly think that winning the cup once since 1920 and the League once since 1910 is something to brag about? Oh dear. That's sad for someone who thinks his club stride the world of football like some sort of Colossus..
Like I said, I'd sooner have our record than yours.I was surprised to see that you've only played one game in the FA Cup Final at Wembley. It wasn't built in your other finals..

And please, you can't compare the Milk/Rumbelows,Littlewoods/Coca Cola/Worthingtons/Carling/Capital One Cup with winning the League, you know, being Champions. And trust you to include competitions that we were not allowed to enter, despite having the title of Champions in your list of achievements. I wonder how many of them you van actually remember? You must be bloody ancient if you can remember as many victories as I can. But then, I don't have to be that old.And Like I said, we've won the big domestic prize more than you and I'd rather have my memories than have to watch some flickering pre war black and white film to get them.

"Good to see you are trying to justify your lower support" Yes, and it's a justifiable comparison. If you can only attract 500 fans more than us but have more than twice the number of people from which to attract those fans only goes to show the level of disinterest that prevails in your city.

Facebook? Grow up, sonny.

[John]

Ramon, I guess the other way to look at that is Villa had won more FA Cups by 1920 than Everton have managed in their 134 year history. Regardless of when they were won Villa have won more FA Cups and infact hold the record for no one having won more FA Cups (from the start of the FA Cup) for a 70 year period from 1920 to 1990. In comparison Everton's period of winning the most FA Cups is zero years!

The league cup is regarded as a major trophy and still has not been won by Everton. When you haven't even won all the major domestic honours (never mind at least 5 of each) you don't really stand a chance. As for the Champions League/European Cup we can only deal with the facts and that is Everton don't have the biggest European trophy in their locker. It would be like me saying (as we have more winners and runner ups combined than Everton in the top flight) that if there was the Champions League/European Cup running for all of them we would have won more.

In modern football (premier league era) Villa have won more major trophies and made more major finals and in fact had the higher league position as well as winning the more recent major trophy!

If when people are disinterested we're still more popular than Everton I think that suggests a massive base of people who potentially Villa can attract. On the otherhand with Everton doing relatively well they're still getting lower gates!

Almost half the UK population better grow up then!

[ramon]

My dicks bigger than your dick.

[Ramon]

John, we are never going to agree. You will continue to see the Milk/Rumbelows,Littlewoods/Coca Cola/Worthingtons/Carling/Capital One Cup as a prize that is as big as the (old) First Division/Premier League. You will continue to think that a trophy won in the century before last, that no-one alive today can remember, is as good as one won within the last couple of decades. OK, that's your prerogative, just as equating Facebook accounts with success on the field are comparables is also your prerogative. Out here in the real world things are different. I respect your deluded opinions, and I also respect Villa as a fine old club, I just think that our more recent and varied successes , in a timeline way, are preferrable to your clubs. Be honest, would you rather have personally witnessed your own club winning the League on four occasions and the FA Cup at Wembley 3 times, with all the ecstasy that goes with it, or would you rather read about in the faded pages of a history book? I was pleased when Villa won the European Cup, which I regard as tougher than winning the Champions League wher you are allowed to win it after losing a couple of matches, and I cheered as loud as anyone when I watched the game on TV, I just wish we had been allowed to enter the competition when we had qualified for it. You're right, we CAN only deal with the facts. And the facts are that Villa's recent history, and I'm talking about living memory, not days when it was coats for goalposts, is woefull. Please, please forget the League Cup, in all it's various guises, after all, the top clubs couldn't be arsed entering it in it's early days, and frequently send out a reserve side now, it is and will always be,as Shankly described it, a Micky Mouse Cup. The fact that we've not won it doesn't bother me as much as winning it seems to affect you, it's all you can point at for a memory.
I hope you and Villa have a good season as I hope we can both upset as many of the Sky4 as is possible, something that gets harder as long as money talks as loud as it does. Good luck, mate, it's been...interesting... arguing with you.

[John]

I don't recall saying that I thought the league cup was as big as the old first division. However, the league cup is a major trophy and one that Everton have failed to win where as all the big clubs seem to have managed to. The facts also show that in modern football (the premier league era) Villa have won the more recent major trophy, won more major trophies, made more finals and got the higher league position. Although like us, before modern football, you also had some success.

I'm being honest and I'd rather support a club that has won 33% more major trophies, won all the domestic major trophies, has won more in modern football and has won the biggest trophy of the two clubs full stop, As a bonus Villa have a superior ground and a larger fanbase.

Size of clubs is also based on total histories not on one person's living memory! I do admire Everton as they are a club like Villa with a rich history but overall and in modern football Everton's is just inferior. Cheers for trying to put an argument up for Everton though - you certainly tried!

[Ramon]

Leeds United
Luton Town
Middlesbrough
Oxford United
Queens Park Rangers
Sheffield Wednesday
Stoke City
Swindon Town
West Bromwich Albion
Norwich
Leicester
West Brom
BIRMINGHAM.

Yep, all massive clubs, all won the League Cup. And we haven't.
You really should drop your obsession with this Micky Mouse Cup. It only came into being in 1960 and no BIG clubs bothered entering it. And yes, you were the first winners, defeating the mighty Rotherham, over two legs. For most of it's life it's been a distraction for us big clubs, which is why we didn't bother with a full first team, instead we would play reserves or youngsters. After all, we were chasing the top prize, the League Championship. It was only when European football for the winners became possible ten years ago did the bigger clubs take it a little bit more seriously.Shankly dubbed it the Micky Mouse Cup. Funny, Liverpool fans (spit) used to decry the competition, now, like you, they bang on about it. Because they don't win the big prize, the Champions prize, anymore.
If you look at the semi-finalist in the early comps you'll see a number of third div sides there. Oh Look! There's Villa! That's another thing you've done that we haven't....you've played in the third division.

You say "Size of clubs is also based on total histories not on one person's living memory" and then point out, during the Prem era you've "won the more recent major trophy, won more major trophies, made more finals and got the higher league position." Which looks like you're arguing against yourself. Which is it? The Prem era or total history.Let's just take the past two centuries, shall we? Or the seasons 1982-83 on, the last thirty years. Tell you what, let's just take THIS century, seeing as you're so keen "modern football" . Everton have finished above Villa on 8 occasions, Villa have been above us on 4. From season 2000-2001 we have had two semi finals and 1 Final. You have had none. (Although you managed a semi on 1999-200, before you start bleating. I managed a semi on myself the other night....)

Serious question. How old are you? I'm an OAP next year. (nothing to recommend, getting older, by the way!) I just wondered how much success you have personally witnessed. Not a sly dig, I'd just like to know what stand point you are defending your club from.
And do you regard the League Cup as an equal to the FA Cup?
I have already pointed out, to counter your crap about 33% more trophies, that "The FA Cup. Counting Winners, Finals and Semi Finals , Everton have totaled 38, Villa 25." but you don't seem to have read it.

Over to you, Sunshine.