Everton ARE a bigger club than Aston Villa

I tweeted the other day that Everton are a bigger club than Aston Villa, a statement met with much hostility from a selection of fans from the Midlands outfit.

This is a discussion I have stumbled across on numerous occasions on different forums and while some Villa fans accept Everton are the bigger club, I remain shocked as to the number of Villains who just don’t see it. Especially when taken into consideration that the Aston Villa official website refers to them as the fifth most successful club in English football history. Everton are the fourth.

First of all it is important to establish what makes a big club. It is not the size of the stadium, or league position the season before. A big club can only be judged on the number of trophies in their cabinet.

Granted, Villa won the European Cup in 1982, a feat the Toffees have never managed. It is worth noting however that Nottingham Forest have won Europe’s elite competition on two occasions and even the most avid of Forest followers could not honestly claim that they are a bigger club than Everton.

The blue half of Merseyside did celebrate European glory in 1985 – Howard Kendall’s side beating Rapid Vienna in Rotterdam to claim the Cup Winners’ Cup, now known as the Europa League.

Of course winning the European Cup is a greater achievement, and had both clubs been locked on the same number of trophies then that would trump Everton’s triumph and Villa would have to be deemed a bigger club.

As often well publicised by Evertonians, the Goodison Park outfit missed out on the opportunity to claim the biggest prize in club football when all English clubs were banned from European competition from the 1985-86 to 1990-91 seasons.

The ban coincided with Everton winning the league the season before and therefore qualifying for the European Cup. Gary Lineker, who signed for the great Barcelona after a season on Merseyside, recently claimed that Everton were the best side he ever played for.

After making the claim through Twitter, Lineker was asked if Barca were not the greatest side he ever represented. He replied: “Sadly Barcelona were not the side they are today. EFC were very strong in mid 80’s. Best club side I played for.”

Of course being the best side in Europe (or certainly one of the best) and winning the European Cup are two completely different things. There are too many if’s and but’s surrounding the subject and the records show that Everton have never won it.

What they have won however is nine league titles, compared to Villa’s seven. Not a big difference but it is worth noting that six of those seven titles were won between 1889 and 1910. There is then a 71 year wait for the next league triumph in 1981. Compare that to Everton, whose nine titles are spread over six decades. Notably two in the 1930’s, two in the 1960’s and two in the 1980’s.

See below links to both club’s official site history page.

Everton - http://www.evertonfc.com/history/club-honours.html

Villa - http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/HistoryHonours

With 108 seasons complete, Everton are also the longest-serving club in the top flight by some distance.

The fact that Villa find themselves second on that list with 99 years spent in the country’s top division proves that they are a club with a rich history – just not quite as rich as Everton’s.

There is no doubting that both clubs boast some of the finest traditions and proudest histories in English football and the likes of Chelsea and Manchester City have a long way to go and many more billions to spend to emulate anywhere near the same sort of success.

As the saying at Goodison Park goes – if you know your history…

Gary Maiden

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Comments

[Ramon]

OK, Here is the Full All Time Table

P W D L F A

Everton 4252 1732 1057 1463 6644 5924

Utd 3512 1662 867 983 6064 4535

Villa 3918 1610 933 1357 6464 5814

Everton ARE above Utd (and Villa) so your claim that you've "won more matches and scored more goals is, like the rest of your case, seriously flawed.
Since the start of this century Villa have finished above Everton 4 times. We've finished above Villa 8 times. So all your crap about "have not lost to Everton in the last 12 league meetings" (but you lost in the FA Cup) means naff all if you still finish below us!
What on Earth does "125 years vs 0 years in Villa's favour ", "67 years vs 41 years in Villa's favour " mean. You'll need to enlighten me on that ,not clear at all when you've won one title in 102 years and we've won 8 titles in the same period.

And you do NOT have more top flight league titles in the trophy cabinet than Everton. Everton 9, Villa 7. Fact.

As for Utd, prior to the inception of the Premier League Everton had won more league titles and more FA Cups than them. It's only since money played such a big part, and SKY invented football that Utd have become the force that they are.

Anyway, this coming season. I would hope that we will do at least as well as last season. Our regular poor start cost us dearly, if we had played BEFORE New Year as well as we did after New Year we'd have finished 2nd ot 3rd. Utd at home first game will be difficult, especially since they've bought RVP but it might make us more up for it, night matches against Utd are usually great affairs. What about that prick Robbie Savage tipping Villa for relegation? You are apparently 5/1 to go down. We're 33/1.

[John]

Incorrect, it would help you read things properly! I repeat:

"we've still won more matches and scored more goals in the football league than Everton"

Key words: football league.

Overall 31 more matches won, 200+ more goals scored and a better overall goal difference too.

In modern football (the premier league era) we've finished above Everton more often and are unbeaten in the last 12 league meetings against Everton too.

The overall stats domestically are: (I won't include Europe as you haven't won the big one there)

In the league it's about 67 years vs 41 years in Villa's favour when Villa have more top flight league titles in the trophy cabinet than Everton (i.e. in about 67 years in Villa's history there have been more league titles in Villa's trophy cabinet than in Everton's)

In the FA Cup it's about 125 years vs 0 years in Villa's favour when Villa have more FA Cups in the trophy cabinet than Everton.

In the League Cup it's about 51 years vs 0 years in Villa's favour when Villa have more League Cups in the trophy cabinet than Everton.

A clean sweep in all 3 domestic competitions which adds nicely to our superior trophy in Europe.

"As for Utd prior to the inception of the Premier League Everton had won more FA Cups than them"

Wrong! Everton had 4 and United had 7 FA Cups when the premier league started!

No surprise that ex Birmingham player Robbie Savage tipped Villa to go down - no wonder Dion Dublin head butted him! Interesting you mention 33/1 - just reminded me of a certain percentage of major trophies we've won more than Everton!

[Ramon]

"Key words: football league"
So you are counting all the games you have played in the third division? The division we have never dropped so low to play in? Right, you think that scoring,say, ten goals in the 3rd div is better than scoring 9 goals in the 1st div? Because that's what it amounts to. Just as 60 points in the third div is, in your eyes, more successfull than 59 points in the top flight. Lord give me strength. How deluded is that?

"In the league it's about 67 years vs 41 years in Villa's favour when Villa have more top flight league titles in the trophy cabinet than Everton (i.e. in about 67 years in Villa's history there have been more league titles in Villa's trophy cabinet than in Everton's)" That does not make sense. What does make sense is that you have not won more than 1 league title in 102 years. And we've won 8.
"In the FA Cup it's about 125 years vs 0 years in Villa's favour when Villa have more FA Cups in the trophy cabinet than Everton." And no FA Cup since 1957. When we have, in fact won it 3 times since then and been runners up 5 times since then. So your 125 years vs 0 years makes NO sense at all.
You are clearly trying to eradicate any trophy we have won!

Bad result for you today, maybe Robbie Savage has got a point.... I'm not saying too much today, we've Utd on Monday night. And I'm in a good mood, had my first hole in one today. 166yds par 3, seven iron. One bounce and it dropped.

(Met Dion Dublin in Portugal, top man)

[John]

I am counting games played in the football league hence I used the words "football league!"

The guy counting his Lancashire Senior Cups and Charity Shields calling an other fan deluded - priceless loved that one!

For about 67 years of Villa's history we have had more league titles in the trophy cabinet than Everton. For 41 about years in our history Everton have had more league titles in their cabinet than Villa. (i.e. for a longer period Villa have had more league titles than Everton)

In the FA Cup for about 125 years of Villa's history Villa have had more FA Cups in the trophy cabinet than Everton. For 0 years in our history Everton have had more FA Cups in their cabinet than Villa.

In the League Cup for about 51 years of Villa's history Villa have had more League Cups in the trophy cabinet than Everton. For 0 years in our history Everton have had more League titles in their cabinet than Villa.

I'm not trying to eradicate the major trophies you have won - after all you only have 15.

Strange you were unable to prove that point about Everton having won more FA Cups than Man U at the inception of the premier league! Can we assume you were talking porkpies?

Congratulations on the hole in one - a great achievement. As for Man U you've got home advantage so anything less than a win for Everton I may see as a failure! :>

[Ramon]

No, John, not talking porkies, relying on a fading memory. Of course, I meant that before the inception of the Premier League, we had won more LEAGUE titles than Utd. Utd 7, EFC 9. In fact they'd gobe about 25 years without a title. (There used to be a sign on the main road between the two cities,the A580 , "Manchester, Trophy Free Zone", a skit on the political leftie "Nuclear Free Zone" signs that were popping up) That wasn't an attempt to big Everton up, just an aside to show that it's only since Sky invented football, that Utd have been the major power. I still haven't got a clue as to why your winning trophies in the 1890's
We won the League in the 1890's, decades 1910-1920, 1920-1930,1930-1939 (2), 1960-1970 (2), 1980-1990 (2) so our successes have been pretty well spaced out over our history and not a hundred years ago. Bar one season.

You say "for a longer period Villa have had more league titles than Everton" , silly stat, that is, John, there's no-one alive who can remember it. Pointless. The truth is you've won one title in 102 years, end of argument. And as for shouting about getting points in the 3rd div, I'd have left that out of ANY argument with a club who have never dropped so low. ( I was arguing with one of the many Man City supporters who have sprung up here since the Arabs arrived at the Council House, AKA Etihad, and asked him if he knew what the three stars mean on City's crest. Of course he didn't know, so I said they represented the three leagues they'd played in since the Prem was formed. Dickhead believed me.)

You're "not trying to eradicate the major trophies you have won "... because they're ALL major trophies. Not The Complan Cup, or whatever it is now. And to win the Charity Shield you had to win a MAJOR trophy first.

As for tomorrow night, I'm hoping we can win, won't be easy with Rooney and RVP in tandem but there should be a great atmosphere and we've a new forward to introduce, even if he can't play until our next match...Villa away.

Do you play golf?

[John]

So just to confirm at the inception of the premier league Everton had won less FA Cups than Man United.

Then you go back to the old argument about the time zones trophies were won. As already confirmed we've won as many major trophies as Everton from WW2, more from 1975 and more in the modern premier league era! (not forgetting the 33% more in totality).

Talking of successes spaced out our first major trophy was before Everton's and our last major trophy is more recent than Everton's!

You say my stats about who has had more league titles, FA Cups and League Cups is a silly stat. I counter that in that it proves for longer periods in all 3 major trophy competitions we've had more of them in our cabinet than Everton.

Good joke to that City fan! I judge success more on what major trophies that a team has won rather than coming, say, 15th in the league for a few more years and ultimately not winning anything.

As for having to win a major trophy to win the Charity "pre-season friendly" Shield - what happened in 1986 - you were neither league champions or FA cup winners! Regardless, you're own club doesn't even regard it as a major trophy!

However, using your logic the European Super Cup would be quite important as you'd have had to either win a major domestic trophy or done well domestically and then win a major European trophy before competing in it - saying that although we've won that superior competition it is still not one of the major trophies either!

Yes, Everton travel to Villa Park soon. With all of our injuries you should pick up the 3 points although as we know it hasn't always worked out like that :>

Yes, I play golf. Do you have a handicap?

[Ramon]

I'm bored. I'm bored with pointing things out to you which you just don't get. I'm bored with you attempting to point out things to me (but without my laser-like wit or accuracy), things which NO-ONE would get. I'm bored with 33%.
You won't change my perspective and I won't change yours, so, I suggest a truce with the written equivalent of a handshake.
I'm not bored with gloating at Mancs following our demolition of Old Whisky Nose's crew of overhyped nancy boys.
Interesting to see if we turn up at Villa Park tomorow.....I shall probably watch on-line as I don't go to many away games any more, but I do have my season ticket foe Goodison.

Golf handicap is steadily rising and is now 13.8, not as bad as it sounds at www.prestatyngolfclub.co.uk where I play.

[John]

First we had the major trophy debate where even your own club disagreed with you - wrong!

We had Everton winning more FA Cups than Man U at the inception of the premier league - wrong!

We had the statement you had to win a major trophy to win a Charity "friendly" Shield - wrong!

To be fair I don't blame you for retreating with your tail between your legs - you've definitely bitten off more than you can chew!

We've won 33% more major trophies and I respect it is difficult that no words you can offer will magically win the 6 more major trophies required to jump above our more lofty total.

I therefore accept the victory.

Should be a good match tomorrow but the way Everton are playing they have to start as favourites although sometimes they freeze at these bigger grounds :>

Nice course by the way and prices reasonable too.

[Ramon]

"I therefore accept the victory." HA HA HA...WHAT victory? I've not conceded anything, you bleurt!! I'm just sick of you trotting out your one "defence" ....33%. Tell me, soft lad, how good was your 33% today? How relevant was talking about winning trophies in the 1890's today? Outclassed in every department, Villa 1-3 Everton . AND that scoreline flattered you. If we hadn't eased up in the second half it would have been a cricket score. Everton 19 shots, Villa (at home) 7..... Everton 9 corners Villa 1. You did beat us in one department, though, you made the most fouls. And your bragging that you've won the most head to head... well, there's only one League match in it now, and when you come to our place even that statistic will be wrong.You were completely dominated in every way, and Villa Park was half empty at the end. If it was a boxing match it would have been stopped at half-time. ( I suppose now you'll try and say "But we won the second half" ) Woefull! Second from bottom, booed off at home, and another relegation fight awaits you.

"We had the statement you had to win a major trophy to win a Charity "friendly" Shield - wrong!" Then tell me who contests the Charity/Community Shield? The WINNERS of the FA Cup and the League Champions! They are the two major trophies. Incidentally, you've never won the Charity/Community Shield outright, have you?

"We had Everton winning more FA Cups than Man U at the inception of the premier league " well, as I said, that was just an aside from memory, we had won more Championships than Utd at the inception of the Premier League or are you going to dispute that, too?

I feel much better now!

Golf, yes, Prestatyn is a very good links course, we had the Welsh Amateur Strokeplay Championship there a month or so back..No-one managed to finish under par at the end of the comp. Pretty tough, especially when it's windy. I couldn't play today, bad back which I'm trying to get right for a match in Hereford on Wednesday. What is your handicap? Apart from supporting Villa....

[Ramon]

John, you appear to have nothing to say,so, "I therefore accept the victory."

[John]

Just got back from a nice vacation...

Villa still with 5 more major trophies than Everton (33% more overall)

Well done on winning your 1st match against us out the last 13 league meetings - about time too.

Since then we've got a good point at Newcastle while Everton were well beaten by West Brom!

As I've mentioned previously we've won more major trophies from 1975 and in the modern era (premier league) - and the more recent one!

As for the Charity Shield remind me what happened in 1986! We've never won the friendly shield outright but have won the more prestigous European version outright, However, as they're friendlies I can't say I'm too concerned about it!

The FA Cup (Man U vs Everton) was disputed as it was incorrect!

In terms of golf don't really play often enough to have a handicap but do enjoy playing when I can get the time. How is your back now?

I enjoy watching the 4 majors - I guess majors are a touchy subject for you as you haven't won so many...

[Ramon]

Who gave you permission to go on holiday? Says the man just back from a four day break in York.
I see your break hasn't cured you of your 33% obsession....just see a counsellor...they may be able to help. Yes, you're right, we did win the latest of the League meetings. And what a hiding we gave you! Talk about men versus boys.... the scoreline could, and should, have been 6 or 7, if only we'd not taken our foot off the gas... Luckily for you Liverpool have been even worse, otherwise you'd still be in the bottom 3! And as for slavering about us failing to turn up after half time against WBA, that'll be the same WBA who battered Liverpool and took a point AT Spurs. So, at their home ground, not many will go there and expect to walk away with all three points. Although, if Gibson had stayed fit we may well have continued to boss the game, which we didn't do when Neville dropped back after Gibbo went off.
We've got Newcastle at home on Monday, they didn't look much of a side against your lot, let's see how you get on against Swancelona..
Back is OK now, thanks, and 38 points with 3 × 1 points on the back nine was a decent score today. All preparation for our annual golf holiday in Spain....have you been playing?